Working a advertising and marketing company right now means always adapting to a endless stream of platform modifications, algorithm updates, and rising applied sciences. Simply once you’ve mastered Fb Adverts, abruptly TikTok calls for consideration. You lastly perceive search engine optimization, then Google modifications all the pieces in a single day. Every pivot requires new abilities, totally different group members, and up to date consumer methods—all whereas sustaining profitability and conserving purchasers proud of outcomes. The stress to remain related whereas delivering ROI has by no means been extra intense.
At present, we’re lucky to have Darwin Liu, Founder and CEO of X Company, a digital advertising and marketing agency that has not simply survived however thrived by way of 15+ years of business transformation. Darwin leads a robust group of development hackers, engineers, writers, and storytellers devoted to driving profitability for his or her purchasers. His company tradition emphasizes excellence, curiosity, and integrity—qualities which have helped X Company navigate the evolution from early social platforms to right now’s AI revolution whereas persistently delivering outcomes.
Social Pulse Podcast host Mike Allton requested Darwin Liu about:
⭐ A framework for evaluating business modifications and figuring out which require fast adaptation versus which may be monitored or ignored.
⭐ Sensible methods for managing the monetary elements of company transformation whereas sustaining profitability by way of transitional durations.
⭐ Insights on constructing a versatile, adaptable group construction that may pivot shortly as digital advertising and marketing continues to evolve.
Be taught extra about Darwin Liu
Sources & Manufacturers talked about on this episode
Full Transcript
(flippantly edited)
Take us again to the start. What was the panorama trying like once you first began in comparison with right now?
Darwin Liu: Yeah, so a fast comic story for you is I graduated from faculty in 2008, proper? And after I graduated, I googled learn how to get wealthy on-line, and that was the place web advertising and marketing was the wave.
So after I hopped on Warrior Boards, it was massive, and that’s the place I realized my craft. Again within the day, it was just like the wil,d wild west. Google CPCs had been someplace round 8 cents to 30 cents. I used to be in a position to promote an affiliate, however I’m going to name them scams. They’re not scams; they’re type of free rebuild presents, however they didn’t have all of that, all of those safety protections these days, the place we do one thing like that, and Google routinely flags it.
Fb simply got here out, and that’s truly the place I made some huge cash in black hat when Fb first got here out. They didn’t have all of their tech group now cleansing all the pieces up and determining what individuals are doing on their platform. However again within the day, I’d do free electronic mail presents for iPads, the place in the event that they entered their electronic mail, they’d get one thing.
But it surely’s truly a rebuild that the important thing will do these presents. They used to have these again within the day, however not anymore. I’d simply create a fast script on Fb, which they allowed again then. These days, they don’t, which first pressured them so as to add all their mates proper earlier than they might enter their electronic mail.
The second step was to enter their electronic mail. I’d receives a commission a greenback 50 per electronic mail. And, I used to be making a whole lot a day simply from doing one thing like that. These days, you can not do stuff like that. These days, they’ve cleaned all these items up dramatically, and we’re white hat is the type of solution to go now. And a whole lot of these black hat strategies have been eliminated.
Mike Allton: Yeah, I blame Cambridge Analytica for ruining it for all of us. Sure. Oh my gosh. It’s humorous ’trigger like I mentioned, I’ve been doing this for a very long time as properly. One among my massive moments from a adverse perspective was when Google+ shut down. I dunno in case you keep in mind. Google Plus, among the of us listening may keep in mind it. Most of you don’t. It’s been gone for over a decade, however when it shut down as a serious social community owned by Google, I had 1 / 4 million followers. And that was a serious supply of not simply curiosity in engagement, however precise income for me.
What’s been one of the vital difficult shifts that you just’ve needed to face in your business, and the way did you overcome it?
Darwin Liu: Yeah. After which, I needed to backtrack to your Google Plus piece, proper? Yeah. That is one advice, and there’s a, there’s a query I get loads from of us, which is, there’s the Amazons, the Facebooks, and the Pinterests.
Why aren’t we simply focusing all of our bucks and advertising and marketing all that on, say, Fb? As a result of that’s the place we get all of our cash. And my response at all times is. As a result of on the finish of the day, you don’t know what’s going to occur with the social media platform. Whether or not they change their algorithm, whether or not they take away you from ever exhibiting something once more, or whether or not they go defunct, you don’t management any of that, which is why we at all times say electronic mail, regardless that it’s a dinosaur, continues to be one thing that our purchasers ought to one hundred percent deal with.
However now, if we’re speaking concerning the charging business shifts, after I began, we used to run paid advertisements on handbook bidding. Automation was not a factor, and that’s the place we constructed our bread and butter, proper? So what we do right here is we do scientific slash systematic testing on platform-specific settings. And once we do one thing like that, the place we construct our systematic advertising and marketing strategy, now we have this factor referred to as the X system. We had been in a position to each scale and improve income on the identical time. And our complete playbook, after I first began doing this for our company, was constructed on handbook bidding.
Now, automated bidding, key phrase focusing on, street, and all that jazz on these platforms got here someplace round possibly 2019. And when that got here, we had this complete playbook that we’re producing wonderful outcomes on utilizing handbook bidding. We needed to shift our focus, say, “Wow, okay, that is altering, but our playbook obtained worn out.” So we mainly simply needed to construct a brand new playbook; we nonetheless have the identical ideology by way of how we do issues. However general, now we have these items deliberate out, proper? AI is the brand new factor, clearly, and that’s rising tech.
On the finish of the day, we simply need to be early adopters and make the most of the instrument scientifically examined. See what works, see what doesn’t.
Mike Allton: I requested the query, and I like your reply as a result of I feel it’s instructive. That ship has handed. We now have automated bidding, in order that’s now not a problem for everybody, however most of the companies listening are serving to their purchasers right now. With search engine optimization and the search engine optimization panorama is altering in a single day. Google is now shifting increasingly in the direction of AI overviews and AI solutions as an alternative of this conventional listing of responses. And to your level, which means we simply must create a brand new playbook, and we have to determine it out on behalf of our purchasers.
Now, one of many issues that I feel a whole lot of company house owners are fighting, however we haven’t actually talked about on this present, is the monetary elements of transformation.
Whether or not it’s investing in a brand new expertise or determining new expertise, or taking the time to jot down a brand new playbook, how do you strategy these sorts of transitional durations?
Darwin Liu: Yeah, and no. The humorous factor is, that is an iterative strategy, proper? After I first began, we’d see this cool new tech, let’s simply say, let’s say activity monitoring. An ideal instance is perhaps utilizing one thing like a ClickUp or one thing like a Zoom information for gross sales. After we first began, we obtained a gross sales pitch. Nice, this appears to be like nice. Let’s go buy the entire licenses yearly. Let’s roll out to the entire group, which by no means actually works, to be fairly sincere. So after messing up a couple of occasions, proper?
These days, say we’re utilizing a brand new platform, a brand new tag, what we’ll attempt to do is we’ll attempt to pilot it, whether or not it’s getting a dummy account to make use of, or whether or not it’s, if we’re utilizing Clickup, we’re going to say, Hey, we’re going to roll it out, the beta testers inside X Company to see if it really works for us. Construct the gentle stand working procedures. Off that type of beta testing group first. Then, if it really works and all the pieces’s nice, now we have the method constructed up, then we roll to the group. We attempt to not signal into loopy contracts and attempt to a minimum of get some trials in the beginning, proper?
As a result of these days, what doesn’t matter is what instruments you will have; you undoubtedly have a whole lot of firms competing with one another. So one, I’d counsel that by no means hurts to ask for a free trial or a dummy account simply so you may poke in. Additionally, if it’s a brand new platform, attempt to get references, proper?
So, for giant purchasers which have used it, we attempt to speak to them if doable. By way of the monetary aspect, after I first began, it was simply shopping for something for the funds. These days, we do have a backside, flat margin that we attempt to at all times run on. So if we are attempting to carry on this loopy costly instrument, we have to work out the place we have to pull that cash from. And if we will’t, then we will’t signal on board but.
Mike Allton: I adore it. So be good, be affected person, be methodical about the way you’re doing these issues now. Earlier, I talked about your company, and I discussed the truth that you’ve obtained development hackers and engineers, writers and storytellers, which is exclusive. I don’t recall having ever spoken to an company proprietor who particularly listed Progress Hackers and engineers on their roster.
How has that come about? How has your group advanced? I think about you didn’t begin 15 years in the past with Progress Hackers and engineers.
Darwin Liu: Yeah, it advanced in a way as a result of we would have liked of us who really perceive the tech aspect. And what we attempt to do, we name this type of we name it algorithm hacking.
There is no such thing as a actual phrase for it, proper? And to really perceive the algorithms, doesn’t matter what platform, we want somebody with a type of engineering mindset. Now, are these really engineers? No, not essentially. These are coding of us who perceive code advertising and marketing and the way it applies throughout the board.
And we want the expansion hacking mindset for the advertising and marketing aspect, proper? After which, we do a whole lot of advertisements, and phrases do matter these days; consideration spans are getting shorter. So we do want of us who can work out learn how to seize consideration. Instantly throughout the first second, which is how all these items feels collectively.
After I began, it was simply okay, let’s begin a advertising and marketing company, as a result of that’s the sector I’m in. And this all got here after studying what we would have liked. These days, what we discovered in case you usher in an internet developer, they don’t essentially perceive the tag aspect and in case you usher in a type of a advertising and marketing one who understands the tagging stuff, they don’t perceive the coding aspect, which is why we would have liked to fuse a whole lot of these of us, put them in a room collectively, have them, share the information and simply put all the pieces collectively so we will have core merchandise by way of servicing.
Now, once you began the company, was it simply you, or did you will have a group, and what number of of us are in your group right now?
Darwin Liu: Yeah, a fast story can be, after I did my Black Hat advertising and marketing, it went nice and all for about two years.
What’s mistaken with Black Hat is that you just make some huge cash quick, however Google or Fb is available in, and so they discover out what you’re doing, and so they kill it. And I used to be sick of that mannequin of discovering the following gap that I can fill earlier than it will get plugged. So what ended up occurring is I needed to work at an company, and whereas working on the company, I began at an entry stage, proper? Like and what? Each single 12 months, I used to be promoted. I did construct a reputation for myself on this business as a result of, on the finish of the day, it’s a very small business. So whereas I used to be working within the business I made, I made a whole lot of of us. They cherished what I used to be doing. After I instantly left, we had been at seven figures throughout the first six months.
As a result of of us did attain out. They tried to come back with us. So yeah, inside six months, we had been about seven figures. We at present, proper now, by way of full-time staff, I imagine we’re about 17. We’ve got some part-time and contracting stream someplace round 10 to fifteen. So not too giant.
We are attempting to develop to the following part proper now. However yeah, we’re nonetheless rising. The Terras have hit us onerous as a result of primarily a whole lot of our purchasers are e-commerce based mostly, however we’re nonetheless, as you already know, advertising and marketing modifications with the drop of a dime. And we’re simply attempting to maneuver with the waves.
I’m questioning in case you may share an instance of possibly of one of many purchasers that you just’ve labored with, the way you’ve helped them reply to a serious business shift, and how much outcomes they achieved consequently.
Darwin Liu: Yeah, extra of a newer instance can be Linked TV. There was an enormous shift into video, clearly video content material, and Linked TV. For the parents who don’t, won’t know what that’s, working advertisements on the Netflix‘s the Hulus, and the HBO Maxes of the world. Lots of of us aren’t doing that these days, and a whole lot of advertisers don’t notice that you just would not have to have 100 Ok funds to spend cash on this.
So we’ve been doing extra CTV for lots of our purchasers. It’s a massive factor, and we do carry it as much as our purchasers by way of what else they’ll do. What ended up occurring was now we have been working extra CTV by way of Mountain, and we’re Mountain’s accomplice, and now we have been in a position to obtain a 4x ROAS on high of branding.
So our first consumer that we introduced on board, they had been afraid of utilizing it simply because they didn’t know the returns, and we didn’t know the returns as properly. What we did was get some case research examined on some smaller manufacturers, after which actually simply attempt to get extra case research by way of the entire purchasers that we’re testing. And what we find yourself doing is utilizing these case research to point out our future purchasers. However sure, CTV, now we have been doing wonderful on it. Branding. One consumer spent someplace round 100, 50 grand-ish, and so they made someplace near, let me, I’ve the notes down, however 4x return on funding.
Mike Allton: Wow, that’s wonderful. And I’m accustomed to that sort of platform. It’s one thing I’ve been eager to get into and take a look at. I feel I’m nonetheless ready for Hulu to approve my supervisor account. So I need to take a look at some podcast advertisements and that type of factor there. However that’s actually cool that you just had been seeing these sorts of outcomes. What, any explicit business with all these e-commerce or one thing else?
Darwin Liu: We’re e-commerce and nonprofit, so identical factor. And non-profit isn’t a ROAS quantity, it’s a CPL quantity, proper? As a result of we attempt to get donations for them. However these are all wonderful outcomes. And after I say 4 x return, I’m speaking about GA4 income. I’m not speaking about platform income. And that could be a totally different ballgame. So we’ve run YouTube advertisements, YouTube CTV, YouTube model, and YouTube mass heads at 100 Ok a pop.
And it by no means returns that sort of cash on a branding marketing campaign. And the truth that these are paying for themselves does show worth. We additionally use statistical evaluation. So I don’t know if anybody is aware of about Pearson Correlation. These days, it is rather onerous to promote paid social or something social, or say CTV, as a result of the higher-level managers, the C-Suite of us.
Don’t perceive it, and so they say, Okay, present me the numbers. And you can not, as a result of GA4 doesn’t present the numbers, proper? So a method we work out learn how to sort out that’s to make use of Pearson Correlation is a statistical mannequin that exhibits correlation between elevated spending from one channel by way of elevated income from one other.
So we’ll use, say, Fb advertisements, or we’ll use CTV advertisements, and we’ll correlate it with, okay, that is truly boosting your income in your direct income, in your referral income, in your natural social income.
Mike Allton: Like it. That is fascinating. Now, I joked earlier that social media we thought modified quickly, and that AI got here alongside, and it’s altering much more quickly. The tempo of change definitely appears to be getting quicker and quicker each single 12 months.
Has your strategy to adapting to new tech modified, and if that’s the case, how?
Darwin Liu: No, not essentially. Not essentially. And I feel there may be that regulation that they speak about, I simply forgot the identify of it, however expertise doubles, proper?
Mike Allton: Moore’s Regulation.
Darwin Liu: Yeah. Okay. There we go. Sure. And on the finish of the day, we attempt to be early adopters, proper? AI simply got here out, and everybody within the firm, we, so we prioritize studying. Everybody within the firm is pressured to make use of AI. Use totally different AI instruments to know it, and we share our information throughout the group.
So, by way of altering our strategy, no, we attempt to not deal with shiny objects. We do bounce on trains relying on how massive it’s. And AI is an enormous practice. So we do deal with that. And what we find yourself doing is it’s the identical, fast, possibly three-step course of. One is one, early adopters; two is everyone seems to be required to make use of the instrument. Three, we share our information, proper? After which 4, what we do is as soon as we perceive what’s occurring, we construct our playbook based mostly on it, utilizing scientific exams.
Mike Allton: Love that. As an AI evangelist, that’s music to my ears. ‘Trigger you’re proper.
This isn’t even a revolution. The fourth industrial revolution is altering how all companies function, so it’s not non-compulsory. In contrast to previous social platforms like Clubhouse, yeah. Companies may skip Clubhouse, and so they wouldn’t be shedding out on something.
I’d adore it in case you may make clear slightly bit extra particularly the way you’re working with purchasers to assist them adapt to new approaches, new business, and new expertise.
Darwin Liu: Yeah, and I’d say relying on the consumer sort, proper? We’ve got publicly traded firms that aren’t simply going to leap on the following wave of, say, AI instruments you need to use. So we usually attempt to go to our smaller purchasers who’re prepared and prepared to do one thing like this. So one is that we are going to at all times take a look at ourselves.
No matter we’re testing, whether or not it’s AI or a type of new optimization practices, we’ll run it on our web site, our personal advertising and marketing campaigns first. If it really works out, we’ll then transfer on to our early adopting purchasers, who’re usually the smaller purchasers who should not enormous companies that need to undergo seven chains of management. They aren’t publicly traded. They’re prepared and simple to, they are going to say sure shortly off the bat, proper? As soon as we get metrics and numbers to show a case, that’s once we carry all this and promote to our bigger purchasers. As a result of the bigger the purchasers are, the extra change that they need to undergo, the extra change they need to undergo.
They’re targeted on these top-level numbers, and in case you can’t present that to them, they’re by no means going to decide on, say, attempting the following new AI instrument or attempting AI auto running a blog or cortisol content material, stuff like that.
Mike Allton: I like that your strategy to rising expertise is identical as your strategy to a expertise that simply occurs to be new to you. As a result of your strategy to OTI is identical as AI, identical as anything, proper? You’re going to study it your self, and you then’re going to work with smaller purchasers first and set up not solely success charges, however clearly, you’re going to create your workflows and frameworks and construct up your information and experience while you’re hopefully attaining success for purchasers in creating case research.
Such a wise strategy. I hope all people listening is penning this down and enthusiastic about, yeah, that is what I ought to do, whether or not it’s including a brand new social community or a brand new service. Begin small, begin internally, after which develop from there.
I’m questioning, Darwin, simply as a final query, trying forward, are there any particular rising applied sciences or traits that you just suppose the company house owners must be getting ready for now to attempt to keep aggressive over the following three to 5 years?
Darwin Liu: Yeah, and I’ve thought extensively on this, to be fairly sincere. At any time when I’ve an opportunity to replicate, I inform my group this as properly, which is that we don’t need to be the company. That’s, again within the day, the horse and buggy, proper? When Ford got here by, folks thought he wouldn’t do a single factor, and so they saved their horse and buggies, after which what ended up occurring is you’re simply holding the horse and buggy when Ford comes by with the engines, and also you’re left within the mud.
AI is altering the ball recreation. And what I actually do suppose is the this company mannequin, whereas it’ll nonetheless work for bigger accounts and say enterprise stage or enterprise stage purchasers for the small enterprise of us,the parents who’re serving native, smaller, say mother and pop outlets who’re serving purchasers, and these companies are serving purchasers beneath $1 million.
The AI bots are coming, proper? We’re creating one internally for our use based mostly on our type of advertising and marketing methods and studying from that. However there are a number of firms on the market which can be proper now creating advertising and marketing bots, productiveness bots, gross sales bots, all of which is able to change.
The entire recreation for say these small enterprise house owners, they don’t want us anymore, proper? They will simply go to a bot for 100 bucks a month and, on the finish of the day, have all their stuff finished with out paying hundreds of {dollars} a month.
That’s one thing it’s important to look into, proper? I’d say attempt to add AI expertise stacks to your supply service fashions as a result of, on the finish of the day, each different company is doing it. So in case you are not, you’re going to be left within the mud. And purchasers are, their pursuits do peak once you speak about AI. So the extra issues you are able to do to remain within the recreation on high of standing out, clearly ideally by bringing in ai one to make your group extra environment friendly, need to make your advertising and marketing extra, higher and environment friendly you aren’t going to be aggressive transferring into, say, I’d say you give this two extra years and the entire advertising and marketing company world goes to alter.
Mike Allton: Yeah, sadly, I couldn’t agree extra. Yeah. People listening may know I’ve obtained my aspect hustle. I’ve obtained an AI Podcast and that type of factor. And due to AI, I’ve obtained I’m sustaining three web sites, weblog posts. An electronic mail subscription with 45,000 subscribers. A weekly podcast, generally twice per week. Social presence on each platform, and I’m doing that in simply two to 4 hours per week. Because of AI. I’m not paying anyone else. Yeah, to run my advertising and marketing, I didn’t know that I had the funds to try this earlier than, however I’m doing much more than
I by no means used to do due to AI, and small boutique company house owners who’re used to working with small companies. Have to rethink how they’ll greatest present worth to these companies due to repetitive routine stuff. And AI is simply knocking it out of the ballpark.
Darwin Liu: Yeah. One, after which, final fast instance for you is we’ve began actually testing AI and running a blog, proper? These days, I even have a type of aspect hustle the place I’ve a canine clothes firm, and I examined it on right here first, which actually was AI content material, AI auto-blogging based mostly in your current content material, proper? So if AI is a talent, the extra you question, you may perceive what it does, and you’ll give a pattern content material, and you’ll give the AI bot roles.
And what we’re doing is we’re bringing AI into Sheets. And what we do is we use AI for nearly all the pieces by way of search engine optimization analysis. We’re constructing hundreds of long-tail weblog phrases which have search volumes of 30 to 200 that nobody is basically rating for. And what finally ends up occurring is we take it after which we level all of that as much as our web site.
My canine clothes firm, the site visitors for natural was minimal, and now it’s at 10k a month, and we spend zero time on the content material in any respect. It’s only a straight AI API add from the sheet so we don’t need to manually add it, proper? The AI can pull the photographs and all the pieces. The whole lot is pushed out with only a click on of a button.
Mike Allton: Yeah. Such as you talked about, photos, I feel inventory images, they’re lifeless. They’re lifeless. When you may go to Gemini and ask for any picture you need, even an eight-second video, now with audio and background music. What do I would like us, what do I would like Broll for? What do I would like a US inventory images web site for?
Darwin Liu: I feel, and I’d say, video and picture creation is sort of there. It’s not fine-tuned but. They’re getting higher at it. Video creation, I feel you guys are nonetheless stable for a short while, however ultimately, man, they’re taking that over, too.
Mike Allton: Yeah. Darwin, this has been unbelievable. Very insightful interview.
I do know of us are simply buzzing with questions. In the event that they need to attain out to you and ask you one thing, the place ought to they go?
Darwin Liu: Yeah, you may electronic mail me at darwin@xagency.com. I at all times reply questions; it simply takes me some time. So be happy to electronic mail me. I’ll reply them one hundred percent, reply them, or join with me on LinkedIn is www.linkedin.com/in/darwinliu/, I imagine, or go to our web site, xagency.com. I do love professing and serving to out, so you probably have any type of questions in any respect, be happy to achieve out, and clearly, thanks for having me on the present, Mike.
Mike Allton: Superior. Thanks, Darwin. Thanks for listening. In fact, we’ll have all of Darwin’s hyperlinks within the present notes for you beneath, however that’s on a regular basis now we have for right now.
Pals, don’t overlook to search out the Social Pulse Podcast Company Version on Apple and drop me a overview. I’d like to know what you considered this episode and what you’d like us to cowl sooner or later. Till subsequent time.
